[Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

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[Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

Dr. Sassafras
So I just got one of my tiki sites hacked. It was a scratch site I used for experiments on a shared server. Hadn't updated it in a while as it was never fresh on my mind.

I've been toying around with the idea of coding a tiki update service, and with this recent hack I'm prioritizing it.

My thought was to create a one-click system to upgrade sites to minor releases.

I had a coupe ideas on how to achieve this, but right now I'm leaning toward creating a separate zip of only changed files and new database update files. The contents could be packaged in the existing directory structure so the file could be copied over the existing files, then the database update process could take place. Updating from tiki 15.0 to 15.4 would take 4 clicks, one for each minor release. If we needed to delete files, it would need to be done in a 'database update' file. We would also need to stop updating the copyright. Each year on minor releases.

The process (download, overwrite, db update) could all happen within the tiki admin panel. We could even have tiki pre-download the update files if one is available and say something like "an update is ready for installation, click here to update tiki" or something like that.

I'm thinking the update packages should only be installed through the control panel for people who don't have a internet connection, they can drop the files in the right directory and tiki will see it and give the message about an update being ready to install.

Thoughts?

Brendan
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Re: [Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

Rado Q
=- Dr. Sassafras wrote on Wed 21.Dec'16 at 14:05:23 +0900 -=

> I've been toying around with the idea of coding a tiki update service, and with this recent hack I'm prioritizing it.
> My thought was to create a one-click system to upgrade sites to minor releases.
>
> {...}
>
> Thoughts?

+ ^2
or
+++ ;-)

Maybe also cover some means of update-verification, so it can't be
abused to inject backdoors.

--
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Re: [Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

Marc Laporte-3
In reply to this post by Dr. Sassafras
Related:
https://dev.tiki.org/Automatic+Updates
https://dev.tiki.org/Update+notifier
https://doc.tiki.org/TRIM

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:05 AM, Dr. Sassafras <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So I just got one of my tiki sites hacked. It was a scratch site I used for experiments on a shared server. Hadn't updated it in a while as it was never fresh on my mind.
>
> I've been toying around with the idea of coding a tiki update service, and with this recent hack I'm prioritizing it.
>
> My thought was to create a one-click system to upgrade sites to minor releases.
>
> I had a coupe ideas on how to achieve this, but right now I'm leaning toward creating a separate zip of only changed files and new database update files. The contents could be packaged in the existing directory structure so the file could be copied over the existing files, then the database update process could take place. Updating from tiki 15.0 to 15.4 would take 4 clicks, one for each minor release. If we needed to delete files, it would need to be done in a 'database update' file. We would also need to stop updating the copyright. Each year on minor releases.
>
> The process (download, overwrite, db update) could all happen within the tiki admin panel. We could even have tiki pre-download the update files if one is available and say something like "an update is ready for installation, click here to update tiki" or something like that.
>
> I'm thinking the update packages should only be installed through the control panel for people who don't have a internet connection, they can drop the files in the right directory and tiki will see it and give the message about an update being ready to install.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Brendan
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> _______________________________________________
> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel



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Re: [Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

Alexander Mette-2
In reply to this post by Dr. Sassafras
Sorry to necro this one, but...

... at FOSDEM Jonny and I talked with a guy who suggested something
similar. Jonny was able to grasp the whole concept, I hope he was also
able to memorize it until now. You might want to have a chat with him
regarding problems and ideas.

cheers
amette

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:05:23 +0900
"Dr. Sassafras" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So I just got one of my tiki sites hacked. It was a scratch site I
> used for experiments on a shared server. Hadn't updated it in a while
> as it was never fresh on my mind.
>
> I've been toying around with the idea of coding a tiki update
> service, and with this recent hack I'm prioritizing it.
>
> My thought was to create a one-click system to upgrade sites to minor
> releases.
>
> I had a coupe ideas on how to achieve this, but right now I'm leaning
> toward creating a separate zip of only changed files and new database
> update files. The contents could be packaged in the existing
> directory structure so the file could be copied over the existing
> files, then the database update process could take place. Updating
> from tiki 15.0 to 15.4 would take 4 clicks, one for each minor
> release. If we needed to delete files, it would need to be done in a
> 'database update' file. We would also need to stop updating the
> copyright. Each year on minor releases.
>
> The process (download, overwrite, db update) could all happen within
> the tiki admin panel. We could even have tiki pre-download the update
> files if one is available and say something like "an update is ready
> for installation, click here to update tiki" or something like that.
>
> I'm thinking the update packages should only be installed through the
> control panel for people who don't have a internet connection, they
> can drop the files in the right directory and tiki will see it and
> give the message about an update being ready to install.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Brendan
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> Training and support from Colfax.
> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> _______________________________________________
> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel



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Re: [Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

Jonny Bradley-4

Oops, sorry - no, can't remember the details, the main issue as i see it is that the web server process (apache etc) needs write access to everything, which is generally bad, so i think it was something like you do a chmod (of something nasty in ftp) top make everything web/world writable, then the updater thing runs (somehow) and then warns you at the end that you need to set the file perms back to something sensible.

Something like that?

jb



> On 20 Apr 2017, at 11:09, Alexander Mette <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sorry to necro this one, but...
>
> ... at FOSDEM Jonny and I talked with a guy who suggested something
> similar. Jonny was able to grasp the whole concept, I hope he was also
> able to memorize it until now. You might want to have a chat with him
> regarding problems and ideas.
>
> cheers
> amette
>
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:05:23 +0900
> "Dr. Sassafras" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So I just got one of my tiki sites hacked. It was a scratch site I
>> used for experiments on a shared server. Hadn't updated it in a while
>> as it was never fresh on my mind.
>>
>> I've been toying around with the idea of coding a tiki update
>> service, and with this recent hack I'm prioritizing it.
>>
>> My thought was to create a one-click system to upgrade sites to minor
>> releases.
>>
>> I had a coupe ideas on how to achieve this, but right now I'm leaning
>> toward creating a separate zip of only changed files and new database
>> update files. The contents could be packaged in the existing
>> directory structure so the file could be copied over the existing
>> files, then the database update process could take place. Updating
>> from tiki 15.0 to 15.4 would take 4 clicks, one for each minor
>> release. If we needed to delete files, it would need to be done in a
>> 'database update' file. We would also need to stop updating the
>> copyright. Each year on minor releases.
>>
>> The process (download, overwrite, db update) could all happen within
>> the tiki admin panel. We could even have tiki pre-download the update
>> files if one is available and say something like "an update is ready
>> for installation, click here to update tiki" or something like that.
>>
>> I'm thinking the update packages should only be installed through the
>> control panel for people who don't have a internet connection, they
>> can drop the files in the right directory and tiki will see it and
>> give the message about an update being ready to install.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Brendan
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
>> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
>> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
>> Training and support from Colfax.
>> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
>> _______________________________________________
>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>
>
>
> --
> https://amette.eu
> [hidden email]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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>


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Re: [Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

Alexander Mette-2
Yes, it was something like that. I also remember that the main issue
was the need to have write permission for the web server. One doesn't
want to have them set during normal usage, because that could mean
havoc in case of a security hole.

So that guy suggested some way to open up the perms via FTP... not sure
how... and then have Tiki install the upgrade and remove the write
perms. This can be done by Tiki itself, so the hardening at the end of
the upgrade could be automagic, which was the thing that sold Jonny and
me on this guys idea. But yeah, details remain to be figured out.

cheers
amette

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:29:44 +0100
Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Oops, sorry - no, can't remember the details, the main issue as i see
> it is that the web server process (apache etc) needs write access to
> everything, which is generally bad, so i think it was something like
> you do a chmod (of something nasty in ftp) top make everything
> web/world writable, then the updater thing runs (somehow) and then
> warns you at the end that you need to set the file perms back to
> something sensible.
>
> Something like that?
>
> jb
>
>
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 11:09, Alexander Mette <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry to necro this one, but...
> >
> > ... at FOSDEM Jonny and I talked with a guy who suggested something
> > similar. Jonny was able to grasp the whole concept, I hope he was
> > also able to memorize it until now. You might want to have a chat
> > with him regarding problems and ideas.
> >
> > cheers
> > amette
> >
> > On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:05:23 +0900
> > "Dr. Sassafras" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >  
> >> So I just got one of my tiki sites hacked. It was a scratch site I
> >> used for experiments on a shared server. Hadn't updated it in a
> >> while as it was never fresh on my mind.
> >>
> >> I've been toying around with the idea of coding a tiki update
> >> service, and with this recent hack I'm prioritizing it.
> >>
> >> My thought was to create a one-click system to upgrade sites to
> >> minor releases.
> >>
> >> I had a coupe ideas on how to achieve this, but right now I'm
> >> leaning toward creating a separate zip of only changed files and
> >> new database update files. The contents could be packaged in the
> >> existing directory structure so the file could be copied over the
> >> existing files, then the database update process could take place.
> >> Updating from tiki 15.0 to 15.4 would take 4 clicks, one for each
> >> minor release. If we needed to delete files, it would need to be
> >> done in a 'database update' file. We would also need to stop
> >> updating the copyright. Each year on minor releases.
> >>
> >> The process (download, overwrite, db update) could all happen
> >> within the tiki admin panel. We could even have tiki pre-download
> >> the update files if one is available and say something like "an
> >> update is ready for installation, click here to update tiki" or
> >> something like that.
> >>
> >> I'm thinking the update packages should only be installed through
> >> the control panel for people who don't have a internet connection,
> >> they can drop the files in the right directory and tiki will see
> >> it and give the message about an update being ready to install.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Brendan
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
> >> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
> >> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
> >> Training and support from Colfax.
> >> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > https://amette.eu
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > _______________________________________________
> > TikiWiki-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
> >  
>
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

Dr. Sassafras
Setting permissions in ftp takes a very long time through ftp.

I would have to think (and test it out) My unix permissions knowledge is a little rusty.

However, I'm thinking that there would need to be 2 users. www user (default user for apache) which would be assigned to any file that needs write permissions, and also another user. I think it could be almost any user. but if a file is created through php, www will likely be owner. I'm not sure there is a way to strip that from the file easily,

Brendan

> On Apr 21, 2017, at 10:22 AM, Alexander Mette <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes, it was something like that. I also remember that the main issue
> was the need to have write permission for the web server. One doesn't
> want to have them set during normal usage, because that could mean
> havoc in case of a security hole.
>
> So that guy suggested some way to open up the perms via FTP... not sure
> how... and then have Tiki install the upgrade and remove the write
> perms. This can be done by Tiki itself, so the hardening at the end of
> the upgrade could be automagic, which was the thing that sold Jonny and
> me on this guys idea. But yeah, details remain to be figured out.
>
> cheers
> amette
>
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:29:44 +0100
> Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Oops, sorry - no, can't remember the details, the main issue as i see
>> it is that the web server process (apache etc) needs write access to
>> everything, which is generally bad, so i think it was something like
>> you do a chmod (of something nasty in ftp) top make everything
>> web/world writable, then the updater thing runs (somehow) and then
>> warns you at the end that you need to set the file perms back to
>> something sensible.
>>
>> Something like that?
>>
>> jb
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 20 Apr 2017, at 11:09, Alexander Mette <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry to necro this one, but...
>>>
>>> ... at FOSDEM Jonny and I talked with a guy who suggested something
>>> similar. Jonny was able to grasp the whole concept, I hope he was
>>> also able to memorize it until now. You might want to have a chat
>>> with him regarding problems and ideas.
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> amette
>>>
>>> On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:05:23 +0900
>>> "Dr. Sassafras" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So I just got one of my tiki sites hacked. It was a scratch site I
>>>> used for experiments on a shared server. Hadn't updated it in a
>>>> while as it was never fresh on my mind.
>>>>
>>>> I've been toying around with the idea of coding a tiki update
>>>> service, and with this recent hack I'm prioritizing it.
>>>>
>>>> My thought was to create a one-click system to upgrade sites to
>>>> minor releases.
>>>>
>>>> I had a coupe ideas on how to achieve this, but right now I'm
>>>> leaning toward creating a separate zip of only changed files and
>>>> new database update files. The contents could be packaged in the
>>>> existing directory structure so the file could be copied over the
>>>> existing files, then the database update process could take place.
>>>> Updating from tiki 15.0 to 15.4 would take 4 clicks, one for each
>>>> minor release. If we needed to delete files, it would need to be
>>>> done in a 'database update' file. We would also need to stop
>>>> updating the copyright. Each year on minor releases.
>>>>
>>>> The process (download, overwrite, db update) could all happen
>>>> within the tiki admin panel. We could even have tiki pre-download
>>>> the update files if one is available and say something like "an
>>>> update is ready for installation, click here to update tiki" or
>>>> something like that.
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking the update packages should only be installed through
>>>> the control panel for people who don't have a internet connection,
>>>> they can drop the files in the right directory and tiki will see
>>>> it and give the message about an update being ready to install.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Brendan
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
>>>> Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
>>>> With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
>>>> Training and support from Colfax.
>>>> Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://amette.eu
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>
>
>
> --
> https://amette.eu
> [hidden email]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [Tiki-devel] Hacked tiki

Dr. Sassafras
In reply to this post by Alexander Mette-2
Ahh

I'm thinking he's probably suggesting that "other users" be assigned write access after the files are deflated through ftp. I'm guessing the owner would not be www if they are deflated (or uploaded) through ftp. Then that gives php write access to everything and it can modify or harden as it sees fit, for the www user. That might work.

Maybe it would be posable to create a new user (might need admin access for that) or perhaps we could just ask that a ftp account credentials be given to the install script.


You can even deflate compressed files through ftp, so that might work for updates. That way tiki can create files with a different user, prevent www from writing to files etc. Password could be stored encrypted... that might work. 

Brendan

On Apr 21, 2017, at 10:22 AM, Alexander Mette <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, it was something like that. I also remember that the main issue
was the need to have write permission for the web server. One doesn't
want to have them set during normal usage, because that could mean
havoc in case of a security hole.

So that guy suggested some way to open up the perms via FTP... not sure
how... and then have Tiki install the upgrade and remove the write
perms. This can be done by Tiki itself, so the hardening at the end of
the upgrade could be automagic, which was the thing that sold Jonny and
me on this guys idea. But yeah, details remain to be figured out.

cheers
amette

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:29:44 +0100
Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Oops, sorry - no, can't remember the details, the main issue as i see
it is that the web server process (apache etc) needs write access to
everything, which is generally bad, so i think it was something like
you do a chmod (of something nasty in ftp) top make everything
web/world writable, then the updater thing runs (somehow) and then
warns you at the end that you need to set the file perms back to
something sensible.

Something like that?

jb



On 20 Apr 2017, at 11:09, Alexander Mette <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry to necro this one, but...

... at FOSDEM Jonny and I talked with a guy who suggested something
similar. Jonny was able to grasp the whole concept, I hope he was
also able to memorize it until now. You might want to have a chat
with him regarding problems and ideas.

cheers
amette

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:05:23 +0900
"Dr. Sassafras" <[hidden email]> wrote:

So I just got one of my tiki sites hacked. It was a scratch site I
used for experiments on a shared server. Hadn't updated it in a
while as it was never fresh on my mind.

I've been toying around with the idea of coding a tiki update
service, and with this recent hack I'm prioritizing it.

My thought was to create a one-click system to upgrade sites to
minor releases.

I had a coupe ideas on how to achieve this, but right now I'm
leaning toward creating a separate zip of only changed files and
new database update files. The contents could be packaged in the
existing directory structure so the file could be copied over the
existing files, then the database update process could take place.
Updating from tiki 15.0 to 15.4 would take 4 clicks, one for each
minor release. If we needed to delete files, it would need to be
done in a 'database update' file. We would also need to stop
updating the copyright. Each year on minor releases.

The process (download, overwrite, db update) could all happen
within the tiki admin panel. We could even have tiki pre-download
the update files if one is available and say something like "an
update is ready for installation, click here to update tiki" or
something like that.

I'm thinking the update packages should only be installed through
the control panel for people who don't have a internet connection,
they can drop the files in the right directory and tiki will see
it and give the message about an update being ready to install.

Thoughts?

Brendan
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors
Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms.
With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
Training and support from Colfax.
Order your platform today.http://sdm.link/intel
_______________________________________________
TikiWiki-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel  



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