[Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

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[Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

Roberto Kirschbaum
Hello Friends,

Asa and I are working on this bug: on delete the last version of a page, a new version is created with the exact same content as the one just deleted. 

We're wondering what's the expected behavior. At first we thought of the following options:
1) Complete delete the last version and leave no trace of its existence (current version decreases);
2) Do a normal rollback of last version so creating a new version with old content (current version increases).

Jonnyb pointed out at #tikiwiki that maybe this feature should not exist or it should be in the Page History.

Our opinion: the whole thing is confusing:
In the Page History interface you can completely erase any version but the last one; Then the Page Removal interface by default deletes just the last version and has the option to delete all versions. The only reason for having the removal of last version in a different place would be the idea of "undo" - in fact there is an Undo operation, which does not really perform an undo, but a rollback of last version, creating a new version with old content and removing nothing.

Our proposal:
- remove the "Remove all versions" checkbox at Page Removal interface. In its place a message like "Warning, all page versions will be removed, if you want to remove individual versions, go to <link>Page History</link>" will be displayed. 

- in Page History, it should be possible to remove any version, including the last one.

- Maybe the Undo feature should remove the last version instead of rolling back to previous one.

We'd love to hear about your opinion!

Thanks
Roberto & Luis




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Re: [Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

Cloutier, Philippe (DGARI-Consultant)
Hi Roberto and ...Asa/Luis?,
I did not understand this mail so I checked what happens when removing a page in trunk. There is a checkbox offering to Remove all versions, unchecked. So if I understand correctly, by default, "removing a page" does not delete the page but just reverts the last version, deleting the last version.

This is completely broken and surely any solution will be better. I agree with Jonny that the possibility of deleting the last version has nothing to do in remove_pages. This should indeed be in Page History. This is pretty advanced and I am not sure it should be there by default.

For others, the IRC conversation was:
luis_asa polom. We're working on a bug when last version of page is deleted. what is the desired behavior when it happens? should it be a rollback (version remains on history) or a complete delete? [18:55]
jonnyb sorry luis_asa - saw your message but was in meetings and now off out, try again tomorrow?
(but basically i don't think that feature should exist, it's pointless imho, or should be in page history...) [19:52]
luis_asa tks! we're writing to tiki-devel

See inline remarks below

>De : Roberto Kirschbaum [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Envoyé : 31 juillet 2017 14:24
>À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>Objet : [Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version
>
>Hello Friends,
>
>Asa and I are working on this bug: on delete the last version of a page, a new version is created with the exact same content as the one just deleted.
>
>We're wondering what's the expected behavior. At first we thought of the following options:
>1) Complete delete the last version and leave no trace of its existence (current version decreases);
>2) Do a normal rollback of last version so creating a new version with old content (current version increases).
>
>Jonnyb pointed out at #tikiwiki that maybe this feature should not exist or it should be in the Page History.
>
>Our opinion: the whole thing is confusing:
>In the Page History interface you can completely erase any version but the last one; Then the Page Removal interface by default deletes just the last version and has the option to delete all versions. The only reason for having the removal of last version in a different place would be the idea of "undo" - in fact there is an Undo operation, which does not really perform an undo, but a rollback of last version, creating a new version with old content and removing nothing.
>
>Our proposal:
>- remove the "Remove all versions" checkbox at Page Removal interface. In its place a message like "Warning, all page versions will be removed, if you want to remove individual versions, go to <link>Page History</link>" will be displayed.

I agree, except I'm not even sure the "if you want to remove individual versions" is warranted.

>- in Page History, it should be possible to remove any version, including the last one.

I believe this could be an option of tiki-rollback.php ("Delete all ulterior versions").

>
>- Maybe the Undo feature should remove the last version instead of rolling back to previous one.

Undo should keep the reverted version (at least by default). But I agree it is poor that a new (identical) version is created :-/

>
>We'd love to hear about your opinion!
>
>Thanks
>Roberto & Luis



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Re: [Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

Dr. Sassafras
In reply to this post by Roberto Kirschbaum
In my projects visibility is important. Rolling back to revert to previous or any past version fits my needs.

I can't think of any specific situations where deleting pages or versions would be necessary... perhaps in the case where pages were vandalized with pornography or something that can can't be seen under any condition. If that were ever to happen to me, I would just delete it out of the database. It's not happened yet.

For the sake of KISS, I would do away with any actual deleting, unless it's the entire page. But if dual delete-rollback functionality is required, then, I guess it can't be helped. Deleting pages or part of pages should have separate permissions though. I wouldn't want anyone who is able to edit or rollback be able to do those. 

So "undo" rolling back one version is what I would expect.

Brendan

On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:24 PM, Roberto Kirschbaum <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Friends,

Asa and I are working on this bug: on delete the last version of a page, a new version is created with the exact same content as the one just deleted. 

We're wondering what's the expected behavior. At first we thought of the following options:
1) Complete delete the last version and leave no trace of its existence (current version decreases);
2) Do a normal rollback of last version so creating a new version with old content (current version increases).

Jonnyb pointed out at #tikiwiki that maybe this feature should not exist or it should be in the Page History.

Our opinion: the whole thing is confusing:
In the Page History interface you can completely erase any version but the last one; Then the Page Removal interface by default deletes just the last version and has the option to delete all versions. The only reason for having the removal of last version in a different place would be the idea of "undo" - in fact there is an Undo operation, which does not really perform an undo, but a rollback of last version, creating a new version with old content and removing nothing.

Our proposal:
- remove the "Remove all versions" checkbox at Page Removal interface. In its place a message like "Warning, all page versions will be removed, if you want to remove individual versions, go to <link>Page History</link>" will be displayed. 

- in Page History, it should be possible to remove any version, including the last one.

- Maybe the Undo feature should remove the last version instead of rolling back to previous one.

We'd love to hear about your opinion!

Thanks
Roberto & Luis



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Re: [Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

Jean-Marc Libs
I like Brendan's viewpoint and I would look at this from the permission side.

If I am not given "tiki_p_remove", I should not be able to delete anything from the database. This is important for sites which require auditing of who did what, and when. So, If I have "tiki_p_rollback" I expect Undo to be available to me and that it deletes nothing and increase the version and not suppress the current version (which might have been written by someone else).

Only if I have "tiki_p_remove" should I be able to delete all page versions using "delete page" or only some versions using history.

So, to actually answer the questions:

On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:24 PM, Roberto Kirschbaum <[hidden email]> wrote:

Our proposal:
- remove the "Remove all versions" checkbox at Page Removal interface. In its place a message like "Warning, all page versions will be removed, if you want to remove individual versions, go to <link>Page History</link>" will be displayed. 
+1, and it should require "tiki_p_remove"

- in Page History, it should be possible to remove any version, including the last one.
+1, and it should require "tiki_p_remove"

- Maybe the Undo feature should remove the last version instead of rolling back to previous one.
-1, it should delete nothing, rollback and it should require "tiki_p_rollback"

Thanks for the analysis and testing of all options!
Jyhem

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Re: [Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

Jonny Bradley-4

Thanks for the summary Jean-Marc, responses inline...


> On 1 Aug 2017, at 00:33, Jean-Marc Libs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I like Brendan's viewpoint and I would look at this from the permission side.
>
> If I am not given "tiki_p_remove", I should not be able to delete anything from the database. This is important for sites which require auditing of who did what, and when. So, If I have "tiki_p_rollback" I expect Undo to be available to me and that it deletes nothing and increase the version and not suppress the current version (which might have been written by someone else).
>
> Only if I have "tiki_p_remove" should I be able to delete all page versions using "delete page" or only some versions using history.
>
> So, to actually answer the questions:
>>
>> On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:24 PM, Roberto Kirschbaum <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Our proposal:
>> - remove the "Remove all versions" checkbox at Page Removal interface. In its place a message like "Warning, all page versions will be removed, if you want to remove individual versions, go to <link>Page History</link>" will be displayed.
> +1, and it should require "tiki_p_remove"

+1

>> - in Page History, it should be possible to remove any version, including the last one.
> +1, and it should require "tiki_p_remove"

+1 but it should also requite tiki_p_rollback and that is implied surely? Or should there be a new pref? -1 from me i think.

Also, i can't see why you can't delete the current version, when it would automatically rollback to the previous?

>> - Maybe the Undo feature should remove the last version instead of rolling back to previous one.
> -1, it should delete nothing, rollback and it should require "tiki_p_rollback"

Also -1, we keep history by default - i retried to fix this a few times in the past as it's a button i quite like, but it's never worked 100% imho. There always seems to be some difference in version numbering going on which i never quite ironed out (probably around tiki 12 times)

> Thanks for the analysis and testing of all options!
> Jyhem

+1 thanks :)

Oh, and one other feature which i possibly off topic here but related - i've sometimes needed to resuscitate deleted pages in the past and doing a partial database restore is always messy, i'd like to see maybe a deleted flag in the tiki_pages table (seems more reliable than an attribute but maybe that's neater) which could mark pages (and their history) as totally inaccessible but restorable by admins, just thought i'd mention it :)

jonny

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Re: [Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

Bernard Sfez-3
If I am not given "tiki_p_remove", I should not be able to delete anything from the database.


Definitely !!!!


On 1 Aug 2017, at 12:16 , Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:


Thanks for the summary Jean-Marc, responses inline...


On 1 Aug 2017, at 00:33, Jean-Marc Libs <[hidden email]> wrote:

I like Brendan's viewpoint and I would look at this from the permission side.

If I am not given "tiki_p_remove", I should not be able to delete anything from the database. This is important for sites which require auditing of who did what, and when. So, If I have "tiki_p_rollback" I expect Undo to be available to me and that it deletes nothing and increase the version and not suppress the current version (which might have been written by someone else).

Only if I have "tiki_p_remove" should I be able to delete all page versions using "delete page" or only some versions using history.

So, to actually answer the questions:

On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:24 PM, Roberto Kirschbaum <[hidden email]> wrote:

Our proposal:
- remove the "Remove all versions" checkbox at Page Removal interface. In its place a message like "Warning, all page versions will be removed, if you want to remove individual versions, go to <link>Page History</link>" will be displayed.
+1, and it should require "tiki_p_remove"

+1

- in Page History, it should be possible to remove any version, including the last one.
+1, and it should require "tiki_p_remove"

+1 but it should also requite tiki_p_rollback and that is implied surely? Or should there be a new pref? -1 from me i think.

Also, i can't see why you can't delete the current version, when it would automatically rollback to the previous?

- Maybe the Undo feature should remove the last version instead of rolling back to previous one.
-1, it should delete nothing, rollback and it should require "tiki_p_rollback"

Also -1, we keep history by default - i retried to fix this a few times in the past as it's a button i quite like, but it's never worked 100% imho. There always seems to be some difference in version numbering going on which i never quite ironed out (probably around tiki 12 times)

Thanks for the analysis and testing of all options!
Jyhem

+1 thanks :)

Oh, and one other feature which i possibly off topic here but related - i've sometimes needed to resuscitate deleted pages in the past and doing a partial database restore is always messy, i'd like to see maybe a deleted flag in the tiki_pages table (seems more reliable than an attribute but maybe that's neater) which could mark pages (and their history) as totally inaccessible but restorable by admins, just thought i'd mention it :)

jonny

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Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com


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Re: [Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

Jean-Marc Libs
In reply to this post by Jonny Bradley-4
Hi,

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 11:16 AM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:


>> - in Page History, it should be possible to remove any version, including the last one.
> +1, and it should require "tiki_p_remove"

+1 but it should also requite tiki_p_rollback and that is implied surely? Or should there be a new pref? -1 from me i think.

Honestly intriging, I haven't thought about it. In my view, it is obvious anyone given "tiki_p_remove" also has "tiki_p_rollback". I can't think of why one would not have "tiki_p_rollback", except in case nobody has it on some Tiki sites. In which case I suppose "tiki_p_remove" should still allow deleting versions, I guess.
Anyway, this is too obscure for a new pref.

Can anyone think of a real world use case for « you have "tiki_p_remove" and not "tiki_p_rollback" on purpose » ?


Oh, and one other feature which i possibly off topic here but related - i've sometimes needed to resuscitate deleted pages in the past and doing a partial database restore is always messy, i'd like to see maybe a deleted flag in the tiki_pages table (seems more reliable than an attribute but maybe that's neater) which could mark pages (and their history) as totally inaccessible but restorable by admins, just thought i'd mention it :)

That sounds like an "archiving" feature more than "deleting". If I delete a bunch of spammy page, I do not want them forever in the database.
Every time this is brought up, someone claims "archiving is not a feature we lack, it can be done using categories", yet it never is.
Anyway, regardless of the flag name, if this is implemented, I guess we need a "real delete" for people who delete pages which are already archived. This could even be done automatically, like "pages archived one year ago automatically vanish".

If I undestodd your use cas correctly ("an intern deleted the wrong pages") :)

Cheers,
Jyhem
 


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Re: [Tiki-devel] Expected behavior when removing last wiki page version

Dr. Sassafras
.
>
> Can anyone think of a real world use case for « you have "tiki_p_remove" and not "tiki_p_rollback" on purpose » ?
>
Perhaps if you didn't do any rollbacks on the site, in favour of deleting content immediately. One might disallow the tiki_p_rollback to hide the functionality? I've never tried it.
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