[Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

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[Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

Bernard Sfez-3
Hello,

I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.

1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"

2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.


Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com


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Re: [Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

Jonny Bradley-4
Hi Bernard,

Are you referring to the pref tracker_change_field_type? Testing in 17.x... seems ok to me, but it looks like someone (him again) changed the labelling on that pref in r61078 so it is now incorrect - it never did prevent changing the permName.

I suggest "we" change it back again? ;)

Also, for me it's not tagged and basic and disappears then i'm not in "advanced" view when set to it's default value (disabled).

HTH

jonny





> On 11 May 2017, at 13:37, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
> But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.
>
> 1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"
>
> 2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.
>
>
> Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel


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Re: [Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

Bernard Sfez-3
Hi Jonny,

Thanks for checking (and helping memory recovery) :)

4 month ago I was stuck on a 15.2 trying to change a permanent name and found out that disabling Change Field Types also "lock/unlock" the permanent name.


It ended by me adding this extra info in the label.

;) + :p

———

But let’s put this discussion aside and focus on improving Tiki. (please)

We rely more and more on Trackers and that’s certainly what make Tiki better than other competitors.

Changing field type has an extra (admin) switch because it can be dangerous to change field type.
Then, I think that Permanent name should also be protected the same way as you can completely ruin a Tiki just by changing one or two permanent name.

Those 2 setting are equally hazardous to change unless you know exactly what you are doing.

It can be with a single (same) checkbox (my vote) or we can 2 checkbox one for each parameter.

Thoughts ?

Bernard

On 14 May 2017, at 17:26 , Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Bernard,

Are you referring to the pref tracker_change_field_type? Testing in 17.x... seems ok to me, but it looks like someone (him again) changed the labelling on that pref in r61078 so it is now incorrect - it never did prevent changing the permName.

I suggest "we" change it back again? ;)

Also, for me it's not tagged and basic and disappears then i'm not in "advanced" view when set to it's default value (disabled).

HTH

jonny





On 11 May 2017, at 13:37, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.

1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"

2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.


Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com

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Re: [Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

Jonny Bradley-4
Hi Bernard,

The code certainly doesn't look like there's any way that pref can change the perm name field (or ever did - i checked in 15.x too) so the info on the pref is just wrong.

The permanent name field has a warning on it about changing it, and it's in a section marked "advanced", i would have thought that's plenty.

Changing the type can result in irretrievable data loss, hence the extra advanced pref - perm names can be put back to what they were if it breaks something, so not the same at all, imho.

jb



> On 14 May 2017, at 15:51, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Jonny,
>
> Thanks for checking (and helping memory recovery) :)
>
> 4 month ago I was stuck on a 15.2 trying to change a permanent name and found out that disabling Change Field Types also "lock/unlock" the permanent name.
>
> I asked in the dev list about it : https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-FrIALlK1aQJ:https://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php%3FforumId%3D26%26threadId%3D62724%26comzone%3Dshow+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=il&client=safari
>
> It ended by me adding this extra info in the label.
>
> ;) + :p
>
> ———
>
> But let’s put this discussion aside and focus on improving Tiki. (please)
>
> We rely more and more on Trackers and that’s certainly what make Tiki better than other competitors.
>
> Changing field type has an extra (admin) switch because it can be dangerous to change field type.
> Then, I think that Permanent name should also be protected the same way as you can completely ruin a Tiki just by changing one or two permanent name.
>
> Those 2 setting are equally hazardous to change unless you know exactly what you are doing.
>
> It can be with a single (same) checkbox (my vote) or we can 2 checkbox one for each parameter.
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> Bernard
>
>> On 14 May 2017, at 17:26 , Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bernard,
>>
>> Are you referring to the pref tracker_change_field_type? Testing in 17.x... seems ok to me, but it looks like someone (him again) changed the labelling on that pref in r61078 so it is now incorrect - it never did prevent changing the permName.
>>
>> I suggest "we" change it back again? ;)
>>
>> Also, for me it's not tagged and basic and disappears then i'm not in "advanced" view when set to it's default value (disabled).
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> jonny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 11 May 2017, at 13:37, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
>>> But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.
>>>
>>> 1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"
>>>
>>> 2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>
> Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel


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Re: [Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

Torsten Fabricius-4
Hi Bernard, Jonny and all,

I think even as the status of the setup is "plenty", as Jonny points
out, a button for each one of the prefs would be good to have,
respectively would make sense.

Unlocking the change of the name should not mean unlocking the change of
the perm_name, as both prefs can indeed ruin a Tiki setup BUT on two
different coceptual places.

Whilst change of the perm_name likely is reversable, as it might ruin
the view based on templates using the perm_names, the change of type can
ruin the setup irreversably, as data can be lost.

So in case you take a hand on it for enhancement, I opt for
2 switches/tickboxes/buttons/options (whatever it is called).

Imho this is mostly relevant for sites with more than one Admin.

Best regards,
Torsten

On 14.05.2017 17:44, Jonny Bradley wrote:

> Hi Bernard,
>
> The code certainly doesn't look like there's any way that pref can change the perm name field (or ever did - i checked in 15.x too) so the info on the pref is just wrong.
>
> The permanent name field has a warning on it about changing it, and it's in a section marked "advanced", i would have thought that's plenty.
>
> Changing the type can result in irretrievable data loss, hence the extra advanced pref - perm names can be put back to what they were if it breaks something, so not the same at all, imho.
>
> jb
>
>
>
>> On 14 May 2017, at 15:51, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jonny,
>>
>> Thanks for checking (and helping memory recovery) :)
>>
>> 4 month ago I was stuck on a 15.2 trying to change a permanent name and found out that disabling Change Field Types also "lock/unlock" the permanent name.
>>
>> I asked in the dev list about it : https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-FrIALlK1aQJ:https://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php%3FforumId%3D26%26threadId%3D62724%26comzone%3Dshow+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=il&client=safari
>>
>> It ended by me adding this extra info in the label.
>>
>> ;) + :p
>>
>> ———
>>
>> But let’s put this discussion aside and focus on improving Tiki. (please)
>>
>> We rely more and more on Trackers and that’s certainly what make Tiki better than other competitors.
>>
>> Changing field type has an extra (admin) switch because it can be dangerous to change field type.
>> Then, I think that Permanent name should also be protected the same way as you can completely ruin a Tiki just by changing one or two permanent name.
>>
>> Those 2 setting are equally hazardous to change unless you know exactly what you are doing.
>>
>> It can be with a single (same) checkbox (my vote) or we can 2 checkbox one for each parameter.
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>>
>> Bernard
>>
>>> On 14 May 2017, at 17:26 , Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Bernard,
>>>
>>> Are you referring to the pref tracker_change_field_type? Testing in 17.x... seems ok to me, but it looks like someone (him again) changed the labelling on that pref in r61078 so it is now incorrect - it never did prevent changing the permName.
>>>
>>> I suggest "we" change it back again? ;)
>>>
>>> Also, for me it's not tagged and basic and disappears then i'm not in "advanced" view when set to it's default value (disabled).
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> jonny
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 11 May 2017, at 13:37, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
>>>> But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.
>>>>
>>>> 1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"
>>>>
>>>> 2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>>>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>> Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

Bernard Sfez-3
Hi,

I guess I had a bug or an error at the same time and even asking of the dev list I get confused.
I rolled back.

And as Torsten, I think it is useful (important) to have a Tiki Admin selector to control the change of permanent name. :)

I have dozens of use case where I have (or I’m) the Tiki Admin and I have Super Users with Trackers Admin permissions.
The need to be able to create fields, change dropdown, trackers, etc.

Still I don’t want them to break previous things that was set already by changing permanent name and. (I recall at least 3 cases where users changed a permanent name because he thought it was nicer or more accurate)

I say that changing permanent name should (like changing field type) be a Tiki Admin controllable privilege and not solely under the tiki_p_admin_trackers perm.

I don’t see a great danger in adding that pref and I (think I) can do it.

B

On 14 May 2017, at 19:26 , Torsten <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Bernard, Jonny and all,

I think even as the status of the setup is "plenty", as Jonny points
out, a button for each one of the prefs would be good to have,
respectively would make sense.

Unlocking the change of the name should not mean unlocking the change of
the perm_name, as both prefs can indeed ruin a Tiki setup BUT on two
different coceptual places.

Whilst change of the perm_name likely is reversable, as it might ruin
the view based on templates using the perm_names, the change of type can
ruin the setup irreversably, as data can be lost.

So in case you take a hand on it for enhancement, I opt for
2 switches/tickboxes/buttons/options (whatever it is called).

Imho this is mostly relevant for sites with more than one Admin.

Best regards,
Torsten

On 14.05.2017 17:44, Jonny Bradley wrote:
Hi Bernard,

The code certainly doesn't look like there's any way that pref can change the perm name field (or ever did - i checked in 15.x too) so the info on the pref is just wrong.

The permanent name field has a warning on it about changing it, and it's in a section marked "advanced", i would have thought that's plenty.

Changing the type can result in irretrievable data loss, hence the extra advanced pref - perm names can be put back to what they were if it breaks something, so not the same at all, imho.

jb



On 14 May 2017, at 15:51, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jonny,

Thanks for checking (and helping memory recovery) :)

4 month ago I was stuck on a 15.2 trying to change a permanent name and found out that disabling Change Field Types also "lock/unlock" the permanent name.

I asked in the dev list about it : https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-FrIALlK1aQJ:https://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php%3FforumId%3D26%26threadId%3D62724%26comzone%3Dshow+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=il&client=safari

It ended by me adding this extra info in the label.

;) + :p

———

But let’s put this discussion aside and focus on improving Tiki. (please)

We rely more and more on Trackers and that’s certainly what make Tiki better than other competitors.

Changing field type has an extra (admin) switch because it can be dangerous to change field type.
Then, I think that Permanent name should also be protected the same way as you can completely ruin a Tiki just by changing one or two permanent name.

Those 2 setting are equally hazardous to change unless you know exactly what you are doing.

It can be with a single (same) checkbox (my vote) or we can 2 checkbox one for each parameter.

Thoughts ?

Bernard

On 14 May 2017, at 17:26 , Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Bernard,

Are you referring to the pref tracker_change_field_type? Testing in 17.x... seems ok to me, but it looks like someone (him again) changed the labelling on that pref in r61078 so it is now incorrect - it never did prevent changing the permName.

I suggest "we" change it back again? ;)

Also, for me it's not tagged and basic and disappears then i'm not in "advanced" view when set to it's default value (disabled).

HTH

jonny





On 11 May 2017, at 13:37, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.

1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"

2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.


Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com

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Re: [Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

luciash d' being
In reply to this post by Jonny Bradley-4
I agree with Jonny. Not dangerous enough to put another barrier to use
and change the perm names easily.

luci


On 05/14/2017 05:44 PM, Jonny Bradley wrote:

> Hi Bernard,
>
> The code certainly doesn't look like there's any way that pref can change the perm name field (or ever did - i checked in 15.x too) so the info on the pref is just wrong.
>
> The permanent name field has a warning on it about changing it, and it's in a section marked "advanced", i would have thought that's plenty.
>
> Changing the type can result in irretrievable data loss, hence the extra advanced pref - perm names can be put back to what they were if it breaks something, so not the same at all, imho.
>
> jb
>
>
>
>> On 14 May 2017, at 15:51, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jonny,
>>
>> Thanks for checking (and helping memory recovery) :)
>>
>> 4 month ago I was stuck on a 15.2 trying to change a permanent name and found out that disabling Change Field Types also "lock/unlock" the permanent name.
>>
>> I asked in the dev list about it : https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-FrIALlK1aQJ:https://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php%3FforumId%3D26%26threadId%3D62724%26comzone%3Dshow+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=il&client=safari
>>
>> It ended by me adding this extra info in the label.
>>
>> ;) + :p
>>
>> ———
>>
>> But let’s put this discussion aside and focus on improving Tiki. (please)
>>
>> We rely more and more on Trackers and that’s certainly what make Tiki better than other competitors.
>>
>> Changing field type has an extra (admin) switch because it can be dangerous to change field type.
>> Then, I think that Permanent name should also be protected the same way as you can completely ruin a Tiki just by changing one or two permanent name.
>>
>> Those 2 setting are equally hazardous to change unless you know exactly what you are doing.
>>
>> It can be with a single (same) checkbox (my vote) or we can 2 checkbox one for each parameter.
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>>
>> Bernard
>>
>>> On 14 May 2017, at 17:26 , Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Bernard,
>>>
>>> Are you referring to the pref tracker_change_field_type? Testing in 17.x... seems ok to me, but it looks like someone (him again) changed the labelling on that pref in r61078 so it is now incorrect - it never did prevent changing the permName.
>>>
>>> I suggest "we" change it back again? ;)
>>>
>>> Also, for me it's not tagged and basic and disappears then i'm not in "advanced" view when set to it's default value (disabled).
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> jonny
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 11 May 2017, at 13:37, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
>>>> But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.
>>>>
>>>> 1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"
>>>>
>>>> 2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
>>>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TikiWiki-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>> Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

Jean-Marc Libs
In reply to this post by Bernard Sfez-3
Hi,

Thanks for explaining with a real life example. Now I understand why the current situation is not satisfactory.

It seems to me, the core issue is, we don't have enough granularity in tracker permissions, so you can't give the Super Users enough tracker permissions for the job they need to do, so you have to give them the full tiki_p_admin_trackers perm?

So, a new pref is just a cumbersome workaround because when *you* need to change a permanent name, you need to switch it on and then they all Super Users can change permanent names and get confused at the new mysterious option. Plus it become important that you don't forget to switch it off afterwards, or are not interrupted before you do because you will never notice.

If I got it right, the correct fix is to discuss what tracker permissions you are missing and leave the pile of warnings for the time being?

Cheers,
J-M

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I guess I had a bug or an error at the same time and even asking of the dev list I get confused.
I rolled back.

And as Torsten, I think it is useful (important) to have a Tiki Admin selector to control the change of permanent name. :)

I have dozens of use case where I have (or I’m) the Tiki Admin and I have Super Users with Trackers Admin permissions.
The need to be able to create fields, change dropdown, trackers, etc.

Still I don’t want them to break previous things that was set already by changing permanent name and. (I recall at least 3 cases where users changed a permanent name because he thought it was nicer or more accurate)

I say that changing permanent name should (like changing field type) be a Tiki Admin controllable privilege and not solely under the tiki_p_admin_trackers perm.

I don’t see a great danger in adding that pref and I (think I) can do it.

B

On 14 May 2017, at 19:26 , Torsten <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Bernard, Jonny and all,

I think even as the status of the setup is "plenty", as Jonny points
out, a button for each one of the prefs would be good to have,
respectively would make sense.

Unlocking the change of the name should not mean unlocking the change of
the perm_name, as both prefs can indeed ruin a Tiki setup BUT on two
different coceptual places.

Whilst change of the perm_name likely is reversable, as it might ruin
the view based on templates using the perm_names, the change of type can
ruin the setup irreversably, as data can be lost.

So in case you take a hand on it for enhancement, I opt for
2 switches/tickboxes/buttons/options (whatever it is called).

Imho this is mostly relevant for sites with more than one Admin.

Best regards,
Torsten

On 14.05.2017 17:44, Jonny Bradley wrote:
Hi Bernard,

The code certainly doesn't look like there's any way that pref can change the perm name field (or ever did - i checked in 15.x too) so the info on the pref is just wrong.

The permanent name field has a warning on it about changing it, and it's in a section marked "advanced", i would have thought that's plenty.

Changing the type can result in irretrievable data loss, hence the extra advanced pref - perm names can be put back to what they were if it breaks something, so not the same at all, imho.

jb



On 14 May 2017, at 15:51, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jonny,

Thanks for checking (and helping memory recovery) :)

4 month ago I was stuck on a 15.2 trying to change a permanent name and found out that disabling Change Field Types also "lock/unlock" the permanent name.

I asked in the dev list about it : https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-FrIALlK1aQJ:https://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php%3FforumId%3D26%26threadId%3D62724%26comzone%3Dshow+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=il&client=safari

It ended by me adding this extra info in the label.

;) + :p

———

But let’s put this discussion aside and focus on improving Tiki. (please)

We rely more and more on Trackers and that’s certainly what make Tiki better than other competitors.

Changing field type has an extra (admin) switch because it can be dangerous to change field type.
Then, I think that Permanent name should also be protected the same way as you can completely ruin a Tiki just by changing one or two permanent name.

Those 2 setting are equally hazardous to change unless you know exactly what you are doing.

It can be with a single (same) checkbox (my vote) or we can 2 checkbox one for each parameter.

Thoughts ?

Bernard

On 14 May 2017, at 17:26 , Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Bernard,

Are you referring to the pref tracker_change_field_type? Testing in 17.x... seems ok to me, but it looks like someone (him again) changed the labelling on that pref in r61078 so it is now incorrect - it never did prevent changing the permName.

I suggest "we" change it back again? ;)

Also, for me it's not tagged and basic and disappears then i'm not in "advanced" view when set to it's default value (disabled).

HTH

jonny





On 11 May 2017, at 13:37, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.

1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"

2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.


Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com

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Re: [Tiki-devel] Change permanent Name (no protection anymore?)

Bernard Sfez-3
Hi JM,

That’s an angle. :)

But I’m not sure it is doable or doable without opening a pandora box.

The dilemma is the same as for the tracker type field.
How to give to someone the permission to edit the tracker fields but not for critical setting ?


And here we have to decide; Is it critical to change permanent name or not ?

For me yes. Permanent name are now part of many component in tiki and it will grow.
Uncontrolled changes of permanent name can mess totally your Tiki and it is time consuming to change back the damage done.

For others no. It may mess with the website but not destroy data (unlike change the type of field).
As Jonny says: "perm names can be put back to what they were if it breaks something".


I have justified fears that before the Tiki Admin is called for help users when the problem is discovered will try to solve this without knowing what they are doing.


If I’m the only one, I can live with it.
If there is others and some doubt about it, I think it won’t hurt anything to have a new checkbox (it can be disabled by default).

Hey we can even discuss it if someone step up for our next Round Table meeting… this week : https://tiki.org/Roundtable+Meeting+2017+05 ;)

Bernard


 
On 15 May 2017, at 13:16 , Jean-Marc Libs <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for explaining with a real life example. Now I understand why the current situation is not satisfactory.

It seems to me, the core issue is, we don't have enough granularity in tracker permissions, so you can't give the Super Users enough tracker permissions for the job they need to do, so you have to give them the full tiki_p_admin_trackers perm?

So, a new pref is just a cumbersome workaround because when *you* need to change a permanent name, you need to switch it on and then they all Super Users can change permanent names and get confused at the new mysterious option. Plus it become important that you don't forget to switch it off afterwards, or are not interrupted before you do because you will never notice.

If I got it right, the correct fix is to discuss what tracker permissions you are missing and leave the pile of warnings for the time being?

Cheers,
J-M

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 8:41 AM, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I guess I had a bug or an error at the same time and even asking of the dev list I get confused.
I rolled back.

And as Torsten, I think it is useful (important) to have a Tiki Admin selector to control the change of permanent name. :)

I have dozens of use case where I have (or I’m) the Tiki Admin and I have Super Users with Trackers Admin permissions.
The need to be able to create fields, change dropdown, trackers, etc.

Still I don’t want them to break previous things that was set already by changing permanent name and. (I recall at least 3 cases where users changed a permanent name because he thought it was nicer or more accurate)

I say that changing permanent name should (like changing field type) be a Tiki Admin controllable privilege and not solely under the tiki_p_admin_trackers perm.

I don’t see a great danger in adding that pref and I (think I) can do it.

B

On 14 May 2017, at 19:26 , Torsten <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Bernard, Jonny and all,

I think even as the status of the setup is "plenty", as Jonny points
out, a button for each one of the prefs would be good to have,
respectively would make sense.

Unlocking the change of the name should not mean unlocking the change of
the perm_name, as both prefs can indeed ruin a Tiki setup BUT on two
different coceptual places.

Whilst change of the perm_name likely is reversable, as it might ruin
the view based on templates using the perm_names, the change of type can
ruin the setup irreversably, as data can be lost.

So in case you take a hand on it for enhancement, I opt for
2 switches/tickboxes/buttons/options (whatever it is called).

Imho this is mostly relevant for sites with more than one Admin.

Best regards,
Torsten

On 14.05.2017 17:44, Jonny Bradley wrote:
Hi Bernard,

The code certainly doesn't look like there's any way that pref can change the perm name field (or ever did - i checked in 15.x too) so the info on the pref is just wrong.

The permanent name field has a warning on it about changing it, and it's in a section marked "advanced", i would have thought that's plenty.

Changing the type can result in irretrievable data loss, hence the extra advanced pref - perm names can be put back to what they were if it breaks something, so not the same at all, imho.

jb



On 14 May 2017, at 15:51, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jonny,

Thanks for checking (and helping memory recovery) :)

4 month ago I was stuck on a 15.2 trying to change a permanent name and found out that disabling Change Field Types also "lock/unlock" the permanent name.

I asked in the dev list about it : https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-FrIALlK1aQJ:https://tiki.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php%3FforumId%3D26%26threadId%3D62724%26comzone%3Dshow+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=il&client=safari

It ended by me adding this extra info in the label.

;) + :p

———

But let’s put this discussion aside and focus on improving Tiki. (please)

We rely more and more on Trackers and that’s certainly what make Tiki better than other competitors.

Changing field type has an extra (admin) switch because it can be dangerous to change field type.
Then, I think that Permanent name should also be protected the same way as you can completely ruin a Tiki just by changing one or two permanent name.

Those 2 setting are equally hazardous to change unless you know exactly what you are doing.

It can be with a single (same) checkbox (my vote) or we can 2 checkbox one for each parameter.

Thoughts ?

Bernard

On 14 May 2017, at 17:26 , Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Bernard,

Are you referring to the pref tracker_change_field_type? Testing in 17.x... seems ok to me, but it looks like someone (him again) changed the labelling on that pref in r61078 so it is now incorrect - it never did prevent changing the permName.

I suggest "we" change it back again? ;)

Also, for me it's not tagged and basic and disappears then i'm not in "advanced" view when set to it's default value (disabled).

HTH

jonny





On 11 May 2017, at 13:37, Bernard Sfez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I found out in Tiki 17 but also in Tiki 16 (wasn’t always like this) that at tiki-admin.php?page=trackers the option : Change Field Types and Permanent Name is classified as "Basic" (displayed when basic is selected).
But more important, even if not enable, I could change the Permanent Name  in tracker fields.

1/ If this option is not enable it should be possible to edit the "Permanent Name"

2/ Change Field Types and Permanent Name option is NOT a basic setting (it should be displayed only when "Advanced" is set.


Bernard Sfez | bsfez.com

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