Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

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Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

Jean-Marc Libs
I also miss an actual discussion on the devel list.

Right now I have to fish around in the cvs list about the motivation for this change. The cvs list is for discussing individual commits with the people concerned, not for general policy changes.

Right now I'm still unsure about the objective of the change. Does it fix some issue ? Does it make someone's life better ? Does it improve Tiki ?
It's hard to comment on the appropriateness of a solution without an understanding of it's purpose.

Cheers,
J-M

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Chealer

I did see that and replied to it (29 Mar 2017, at 11:40, reply to Luci's reply) - what i was asking was did i miss the discussion where this change was agreed?

I guess we just disagree on this - but mainly i think it's more important what's in the code than in the commit message.

Must get on (with code ;)

Thanks

jonny



> On 29 Mar 2017, at 21:15, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you didn't see my "Commit tags [KIL], [REM] and others (RE: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61879] trunk/admin/include_userfiles.php)" to tikiwiki-cvs, you missed a couple hours of updatedness :-) (but I did write after the commit).
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jonny Bradley [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Envoyé : 29 mars 2017 15:32
>> À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>> Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
>>
>>
>> Did i miss something?
>>
>>> On 29 Mar 2017, at 18:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Revision: 61942
>>>         http://sourceforge.net/p/tikiwiki/code/61942
>>> Author:   chealer
>>> Date:     2017-03-29 17:54:02 +0000 (Wed, 29 Mar 2017)
>>> Log Message:
>>> -----------
>>> Change some commit tags into subtags: [DOC] -> [ENH:DOC], [SEC] ->
>>> [FIX:SEC], [REM] -> [MOD:REM], [KIL] -> [REF:KIL]
>>>
>>> Modified Paths:
>>> --------------
>>>   trunk/changelog.txt
>>>
>>> Modified: trunk/changelog.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:49:53 UTC (rev 61941)
>>> +++ trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:54:02 UTC (rev 61942)
>>> @@ -3,13 +3,13 @@
>>>
>>> Changelog is now generated by a script (doc/devtools/release.php)
>>>
>>> -The following tags can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> +The following tags (and subtags, in the form [TAG:SUBTAG]) can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> * [NEW] for additions of new features
>>> * [ENH] is an enhancement; not really new but makes things work better
>>> (e.g. look and feel, performance...)
>>> -* [MOD] is a change in how things work, which may disrupt user
>>> habits, for example changing the default value of an option
>>> +** [ENH:DOC] (previously [DOC]) for improvements in the tips or
>>> +contextual documentation provided to the user/admin
>>>
>>> * [FIX] for bug fixes of any sort
>>> -* [SEC] for security fix operations (implies [FIX]). If you feel you
>>> have reason to put this tag, please first contact security at tiki.org
>>> +** [FIX:SEC] (previously [SEC]) for security fix operations. If you feel you have reason to put this
>> tag, please first contact security at tiki.org.
>>> * [UPD] for updates of third party/vendor libraries
>>>
>>> * [UX] for user experience improvements; makes Tiki easier to use and
>>> understand (more details in https://dev.tiki.org/UX ) @@ -16,14 +16,14
>>> @@
>>>
>>> * [DB] for changes in the database
>>>
>>> -* [REM] for feature removals
>>> -* [KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files (has been used in
>>> the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6)
>>> +* [MOD] is a change which may be disruptive. For example, changing the default value of an
>> option.
>>> +** [MOD:REM] (previously [REM]) for feature removals
>>>
>>> +* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> +** [REF:KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files. This tag was previously "[KIL]", which was
>> used in the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6.
>>>
>>> -* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> * [REL] for the release process
>>> * [MRG] for branch merges, generally performed by the merge scripts
>>> -* [DOC] for improvements in the tips or contextual documentation
>>> provided to the user/admin
>>> * [TRA] for translation
>>>
>>> When possible, it's also nice to indicate what feature is concerned by the change.
>>>
>>> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development platform, the world's largest Open
>> Source development site.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>


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Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE)

Hi Jean-Marc,

There is usually extremely little interest in commit tags. I doubt someone with an opinion on commit tags would be subscribed to tikiwiki-devel without being subscribed to tikiwiki-cvs, but you are of course entirely free to bring the topic there.

 

The objective of the change is precisely to reflect that, by reducing the number of (top-level) tags and making some superfluous tags mere sub-tags, even more optional. While there is no guarantee, this will presumably reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This does not improve Tiki per se, but should improve the lives of administrators and code reviewers (to a certain extent J ).

 

De : Jean-Marc Libs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Envoyé : 30 mars 2017 08:41
À : CVS/SVN commits information <[hidden email]>; Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>
Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

 

I also miss an actual discussion on the devel list.

Right now I have to fish around in the cvs list about the motivation for this change. The cvs list is for discussing individual commits with the people concerned, not for general policy changes.

Right now I'm still unsure about the objective of the change. Does it fix some issue ? Does it make someone's life better ? Does it improve Tiki ?
It's hard to comment on the appropriateness of a solution without an understanding of it's purpose.

Cheers,

J-M

 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Chealer

I did see that and replied to it (29 Mar 2017, at 11:40, reply to Luci's reply) - what i was asking was did i miss the discussion where this change was agreed?

I guess we just disagree on this - but mainly i think it's more important what's in the code than in the commit message.

Must get on (with code ;)

Thanks

jonny




> On 29 Mar 2017, at 21:15, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you didn't see my "Commit tags [KIL], [REM] and others (RE: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61879] trunk/admin/include_userfiles.php)" to tikiwiki-cvs, you missed a couple hours of updatedness :-) (but I did write after the commit).
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jonny Bradley [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Envoyé : 29 mars 2017 15:32
>> À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>> Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
>>
>>
>> Did i miss something?
>>
>>> On 29 Mar 2017, at 18:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Revision: 61942
>>>         http://sourceforge.net/p/tikiwiki/code/61942
>>> Author:   chealer
>>> Date:     2017-03-29 17:54:02 +0000 (Wed, 29 Mar 2017)
>>> Log Message:
>>> -----------
>>> Change some commit tags into subtags: [DOC] -> [ENH:DOC], [SEC] ->
>>> [FIX:SEC], [REM] -> [MOD:REM], [KIL] -> [REF:KIL]
>>>
>>> Modified Paths:
>>> --------------
>>>   trunk/changelog.txt
>>>
>>> Modified: trunk/changelog.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:49:53 UTC (rev 61941)
>>> +++ trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:54:02 UTC (rev 61942)
>>> @@ -3,13 +3,13 @@
>>>
>>> Changelog is now generated by a script (doc/devtools/release.php)
>>>
>>> -The following tags can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> +The following tags (and subtags, in the form [TAG:SUBTAG]) can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> * [NEW] for additions of new features
>>> * [ENH] is an enhancement; not really new but makes things work better
>>> (e.g. look and feel, performance...)
>>> -* [MOD] is a change in how things work, which may disrupt user
>>> habits, for example changing the default value of an option
>>> +** [ENH:DOC] (previously [DOC]) for improvements in the tips or
>>> +contextual documentation provided to the user/admin
>>>
>>> * [FIX] for bug fixes of any sort
>>> -* [SEC] for security fix operations (implies [FIX]). If you feel you
>>> have reason to put this tag, please first contact security at tiki.org
>>> +** [FIX:SEC] (previously [SEC]) for security fix operations. If you feel you have reason to put this
>> tag, please first contact security at tiki.org.
>>> * [UPD] for updates of third party/vendor libraries
>>>
>>> * [UX] for user experience improvements; makes Tiki easier to use and
>>> understand (more details in https://dev.tiki.org/UX ) @@ -16,14 +16,14
>>> @@
>>>
>>> * [DB] for changes in the database
>>>
>>> -* [REM] for feature removals
>>> -* [KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files (has been used in
>>> the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6)
>>> +* [MOD] is a change which may be disruptive. For example, changing the default value of an
>> option.
>>> +** [MOD:REM] (previously [REM]) for feature removals
>>>
>>> +* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> +** [REF:KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files. This tag was previously "[KIL]", which was
>> used in the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6.
>>>
>>> -* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> * [REL] for the release process
>>> * [MRG] for branch merges, generally performed by the merge scripts
>>> -* [DOC] for improvements in the tips or contextual documentation
>>> provided to the user/admin
>>> * [TRA] for translation
>>>
>>> When possible, it's also nice to indicate what feature is concerned by the change.
>>>
>>> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development platform, the world's largest Open
>> Source development site.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>


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Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

lindon-4
+1 to the idea that this should have been discussed on the dev list

On Mar 30, 2017, at 12:11 PM, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jean-Marc,
There is usually extremely little interest in commit tags. I doubt someone with an opinion on commit tags would be subscribed to tikiwiki-devel without being subscribed to tikiwiki-cvs, but you are of course entirely free to bring the topic there.
 
The objective of the change is precisely to reflect that, by reducing the number of (top-level) tags and making some superfluous tags mere sub-tags, even more optional. While there is no guarantee, this will presumably reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This does not improve Tiki per se, but should improve the lives of administrators and code reviewers (to a certain extent J ).
 
De : Jean-Marc Libs [[hidden email]] 
Envoyé : 30 mars 2017 08:41
À : CVS/SVN commits information <[hidden email]>; Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>
Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
 

I also miss an actual discussion on the devel list.

Right now I have to fish around in the cvs list about the motivation for this change. The cvs list is for discussing individual commits with the people concerned, not for general policy changes.

Right now I'm still unsure about the objective of the change. Does it fix some issue ? Does it make someone's life better ? Does it improve Tiki ?
It's hard to comment on the appropriateness of a solution without an understanding of it's purpose.

Cheers,
J-M
 
On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Chealer

I did see that and replied to it (29 Mar 2017, at 11:40, reply to Luci's reply) - what i was asking was did i miss the discussion where this change was agreed?

I guess we just disagree on this - but mainly i think it's more important what's in the code than in the commit message.

Must get on (with code ;)

Thanks

jonny



> On 29 Mar 2017, at 21:15, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you didn't see my "Commit tags [KIL], [REM] and others (RE: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61879] trunk/admin/include_userfiles.php)" to tikiwiki-cvs, you missed a couple hours of updatedness :-) (but I did write after the commit).
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jonny Bradley [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Envoyé : 29 mars 2017 15:32
>> À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>> Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
>>
>>
>> Did i miss something?
>>
>>> On 29 Mar 2017, at 18:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Revision: 61942
>>>         http://sourceforge.net/p/tikiwiki/code/61942
>>> Author:   chealer
>>> Date:     2017-03-29 17:54:02 +0000 (Wed, 29 Mar 2017)
>>> Log Message:
>>> -----------
>>> Change some commit tags into subtags: [DOC] -> [ENH:DOC], [SEC] ->
>>> [FIX:SEC], [REM] -> [MOD:REM], [KIL] -> [REF:KIL]
>>>
>>> Modified Paths:
>>> --------------
>>>   trunk/changelog.txt
>>>
>>> Modified: trunk/changelog.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:49:53 UTC (rev 61941)
>>> +++ trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:54:02 UTC (rev 61942)
>>> @@ -3,13 +3,13 @@
>>>
>>> Changelog is now generated by a script (doc/devtools/release.php)
>>>
>>> -The following tags can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> +The following tags (and subtags, in the form [TAG:SUBTAG]) can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> * [NEW] for additions of new features
>>> * [ENH] is an enhancement; not really new but makes things work better
>>> (e.g. look and feel, performance...)
>>> -* [MOD] is a change in how things work, which may disrupt user
>>> habits, for example changing the default value of an option
>>> +** [ENH:DOC] (previously [DOC]) for improvements in the tips or
>>> +contextual documentation provided to the user/admin
>>>
>>> * [FIX] for bug fixes of any sort
>>> -* [SEC] for security fix operations (implies [FIX]). If you feel you
>>> have reason to put this tag, please first contact security at tiki.org
>>> +** [FIX:SEC] (previously [SEC]) for security fix operations. If you feel you have reason to put this
>> tag, please first contact security at tiki.org.
>>> * [UPD] for updates of third party/vendor libraries
>>>
>>> * [UX] for user experience improvements; makes Tiki easier to use and
>>> understand (more details in https://dev.tiki.org/UX ) @@ -16,14 +16,14
>>> @@
>>>
>>> * [DB] for changes in the database
>>>
>>> -* [REM] for feature removals
>>> -* [KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files (has been used in
>>> the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6)
>>> +* [MOD] is a change which may be disruptive. For example, changing the default value of an
>> option.
>>> +** [MOD:REM] (previously [REM]) for feature removals
>>>
>>> +* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> +** [REF:KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files. This tag was previously "[KIL]", which was
>> used in the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6.
>>>
>>> -* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> * [REL] for the release process
>>> * [MRG] for branch merges, generally performed by the merge scripts
>>> -* [DOC] for improvements in the tips or contextual documentation
>>> provided to the user/admin
>>> * [TRA] for translation
>>>
>>> When possible, it's also nice to indicate what feature is concerned by the change.
>>>
>>> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development platform, the world's largest Open
>> Source development site.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>


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Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

Jean-Marc Libs
In reply to this post by Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE)
Hi Philippe and everybody,

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jean-Marc,

There is usually extremely little interest in commit tags. I doubt someone with an opinion on commit tags would be subscribed to tikiwiki-devel without being subscribed to tikiwiki-cvs, but you are of course entirely free to bring the topic there.


It's not a matter of interest on the topic. I agree it's low. It's about using lists for their stated purposes.
From https://tiki.org/Mailing+Lists:
CVS SVN commits information, and comments about commits
If you plan to develop and commit code, you should subscribe to this list.
Development Tiki developers (the main decision/communication channel. Please do not use this forum for support — use the Forums instead.

As you see, CVS is about discussing commits, not making policy decisions. I personally try to read everything on devel, and I only browse CVS when time allows. Some of us never do, and they should have the opportunity of reacting before changes show up in a commit.


 

The objective of the change is precisely to reflect that, by reducing the number of (top-level) tags and making some superfluous tags mere sub-tags, even more optional. While there is no guarantee, this will presumably reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This does not improve Tiki per se, but should improve the lives of administrators and code reviewers (to a certain extent J ).


Thanks for explaining the objective of the change: reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This is my opinion on the matter:
The main reason for tag misuse is, tagging commits is less important than coding the commit itself. I feel you agree with this. Plus, it's the last step, when people sometimes feel tired and impatient to wrap the the coding session.

I feel misuse happens mostly because of inattention and carelessness.
This is not going to be solved with a new system of tags which is more elaborate with sub-tagging. This makes the whole thing more complicated to understand and type. There is no reduction of the number of tags, they just get longer and there is more text to read in order to understand how it works.
In my opinion, this will probably lead to more misuse.

Sadly, I don't have a 100% perfect solution. I just feel the optimum is having clear simple descriptions of tags, not too many tags, and point out tagging mistakes in reply to commit messages.

That's why I vote -1 to this change in the interest of the stated objective.

Cheers,
Jyhem
 

 

De : Jean-Marc Libs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Envoyé : 30 mars 2017 08:41
À : CVS/SVN commits information <[hidden email]>; Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>


Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

 

I also miss an actual discussion on the devel list.

Right now I have to fish around in the cvs list about the motivation for this change. The cvs list is for discussing individual commits with the people concerned, not for general policy changes.

Right now I'm still unsure about the objective of the change. Does it fix some issue ? Does it make someone's life better ? Does it improve Tiki ?
It's hard to comment on the appropriateness of a solution without an understanding of it's purpose.

Cheers,

J-M

 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Chealer

I did see that and replied to it (29 Mar 2017, at 11:40, reply to Luci's reply) - what i was asking was did i miss the discussion where this change was agreed?

I guess we just disagree on this - but mainly i think it's more important what's in the code than in the commit message.

Must get on (with code ;)

Thanks

jonny




> On 29 Mar 2017, at 21:15, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you didn't see my "Commit tags [KIL], [REM] and others (RE: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61879] trunk/admin/include_userfiles.php)" to tikiwiki-cvs, you missed a couple hours of updatedness :-) (but I did write after the commit).
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jonny Bradley [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Envoyé : 29 mars 2017 15:32
>> À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>> Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
>>
>>
>> Did i miss something?
>>
>>> On 29 Mar 2017, at 18:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Revision: 61942
>>>         http://sourceforge.net/p/tikiwiki/code/61942
>>> Author:   chealer
>>> Date:     2017-03-29 17:54:02 +0000 (Wed, 29 Mar 2017)
>>> Log Message:
>>> -----------
>>> Change some commit tags into subtags: [DOC] -> [ENH:DOC], [SEC] ->
>>> [FIX:SEC], [REM] -> [MOD:REM], [KIL] -> [REF:KIL]
>>>
>>> Modified Paths:
>>> --------------
>>>   trunk/changelog.txt
>>>
>>> Modified: trunk/changelog.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:49:53 UTC (rev 61941)
>>> +++ trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:54:02 UTC (rev 61942)
>>> @@ -3,13 +3,13 @@
>>>
>>> Changelog is now generated by a script (doc/devtools/release.php)
>>>
>>> -The following tags can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> +The following tags (and subtags, in the form [TAG:SUBTAG]) can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> * [NEW] for additions of new features
>>> * [ENH] is an enhancement; not really new but makes things work better
>>> (e.g. look and feel, performance...)
>>> -* [MOD] is a change in how things work, which may disrupt user
>>> habits, for example changing the default value of an option
>>> +** [ENH:DOC] (previously [DOC]) for improvements in the tips or
>>> +contextual documentation provided to the user/admin
>>>
>>> * [FIX] for bug fixes of any sort
>>> -* [SEC] for security fix operations (implies [FIX]). If you feel you
>>> have reason to put this tag, please first contact security at tiki.org
>>> +** [FIX:SEC] (previously [SEC]) for security fix operations. If you feel you have reason to put this
>> tag, please first contact security at tiki.org.
>>> * [UPD] for updates of third party/vendor libraries
>>>
>>> * [UX] for user experience improvements; makes Tiki easier to use and
>>> understand (more details in https://dev.tiki.org/UX ) @@ -16,14 +16,14
>>> @@
>>>
>>> * [DB] for changes in the database
>>>
>>> -* [REM] for feature removals
>>> -* [KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files (has been used in
>>> the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6)
>>> +* [MOD] is a change which may be disruptive. For example, changing the default value of an
>> option.
>>> +** [MOD:REM] (previously [REM]) for feature removals
>>>
>>> +* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> +** [REF:KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files. This tag was previously "[KIL]", which was
>> used in the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6.
>>>
>>> -* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> * [REL] for the release process
>>> * [MRG] for branch merges, generally performed by the merge scripts
>>> -* [DOC] for improvements in the tips or contextual documentation
>>> provided to the user/admin
>>> * [TRA] for translation
>>>
>>> When possible, it's also nice to indicate what feature is concerned by the change.
>>>
>>> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development platform, the world's largest Open
>> Source development site.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

Dr. Sassafras
Commit tags are handy, but I don't care if they are not tagged "properly" as long as it's close. I would rather see people's effort in coding encouraged. If someone tags something that's really off base, a quick mention is all that's needed.

I would be in favour, if it's posable, to perhaps rejig commit tags so they match up with what's permitted to committed to which which branch, during each phase, if that's not already the case.

Then perhaps when we go through a release, we can send out a reminder on dev list stating which tags are being accepted in each branch.

All in all I don't care to spend much time st all subcategorizing the tags... I see little or even negative benefit. Would much rather focus on how to make tiki developers lives easier, and make tiki feel like a fun place to code.

We're all volunteer labour here at tiki. Tiki doesn't pay anyone for there contributions. If there is one thing I've learnt in places that accept volunteer labour, it's that every effort needs to be encouraged and praised. People just don't volunteer if it turns into a pain in the ass or they don't feel appreciated. 

-1 for making tags more difficult to select
-1 for strict adherence to existing tags

+1 for clarifying commit cycles with tags

Brendan

On Apr 20, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Jean-Marc Libs <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Philippe and everybody,

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jean-Marc,

There is usually extremely little interest in commit tags. I doubt someone with an opinion on commit tags would be subscribed to tikiwiki-devel without being subscribed to tikiwiki-cvs, but you are of course entirely free to bring the topic there.


It's not a matter of interest on the topic. I agree it's low. It's about using lists for their stated purposes.
From https://tiki.org/Mailing+Lists:
CVS SVN commits information, and comments about commits
If you plan to develop and commit code, you should subscribe to this list.
Development Tiki developers (the main decision/communication channel. Please do not use this forum for support — use the Forums instead.

As you see, CVS is about discussing commits, not making policy decisions. I personally try to read everything on devel, and I only browse CVS when time allows. Some of us never do, and they should have the opportunity of reacting before changes show up in a commit.


 

The objective of the change is precisely to reflect that, by reducing the number of (top-level) tags and making some superfluous tags mere sub-tags, even more optional. While there is no guarantee, this will presumably reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This does not improve Tiki per se, but should improve the lives of administrators and code reviewers (to a certain extent J ).


Thanks for explaining the objective of the change: reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This is my opinion on the matter:
The main reason for tag misuse is, tagging commits is less important than coding the commit itself. I feel you agree with this. Plus, it's the last step, when people sometimes feel tired and impatient to wrap the the coding session.

I feel misuse happens mostly because of inattention and carelessness.
This is not going to be solved with a new system of tags which is more elaborate with sub-tagging. This makes the whole thing more complicated to understand and type. There is no reduction of the number of tags, they just get longer and there is more text to read in order to understand how it works.
In my opinion, this will probably lead to more misuse.

Sadly, I don't have a 100% perfect solution. I just feel the optimum is having clear simple descriptions of tags, not too many tags, and point out tagging mistakes in reply to commit messages.

That's why I vote -1 to this change in the interest of the stated objective.

Cheers,
Jyhem
 

 

De : Jean-Marc Libs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Envoyé : 30 mars 2017 08:41
À : CVS/SVN commits information <[hidden email]>; Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>


Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

 

I also miss an actual discussion on the devel list.

Right now I have to fish around in the cvs list about the motivation for this change. The cvs list is for discussing individual commits with the people concerned, not for general policy changes.

Right now I'm still unsure about the objective of the change. Does it fix some issue ? Does it make someone's life better ? Does it improve Tiki ?
It's hard to comment on the appropriateness of a solution without an understanding of it's purpose.

Cheers,

J-M

 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Chealer

I did see that and replied to it (29 Mar 2017, at 11:40, reply to Luci's reply) - what i was asking was did i miss the discussion where this change was agreed?

I guess we just disagree on this - but mainly i think it's more important what's in the code than in the commit message.

Must get on (with code ;)

Thanks

jonny




> On 29 Mar 2017, at 21:15, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you didn't see my "Commit tags [KIL], [REM] and others (RE: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61879] trunk/admin/include_userfiles.php)" to tikiwiki-cvs, you missed a couple hours of updatedness :-) (but I did write after the commit).
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jonny Bradley [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Envoyé : 29 mars 2017 15:32
>> À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>> Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
>>
>>
>> Did i miss something?
>>
>>> On 29 Mar 2017, at 18:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Revision: 61942
>>>         http://sourceforge.net/p/tikiwiki/code/61942
>>> Author:   chealer
>>> Date:     2017-03-29 17:54:02 +0000 (Wed, 29 Mar 2017)
>>> Log Message:
>>> -----------
>>> Change some commit tags into subtags: [DOC] -> [ENH:DOC], [SEC] ->
>>> [FIX:SEC], [REM] -> [MOD:REM], [KIL] -> [REF:KIL]
>>>
>>> Modified Paths:
>>> --------------
>>>   trunk/changelog.txt
>>>
>>> Modified: trunk/changelog.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:49:53 UTC (rev 61941)
>>> +++ trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:54:02 UTC (rev 61942)
>>> @@ -3,13 +3,13 @@
>>>
>>> Changelog is now generated by a script (doc/devtools/release.php)
>>>
>>> -The following tags can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> +The following tags (and subtags, in the form [TAG:SUBTAG]) can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> * [NEW] for additions of new features
>>> * [ENH] is an enhancement; not really new but makes things work better
>>> (e.g. look and feel, performance...)
>>> -* [MOD] is a change in how things work, which may disrupt user
>>> habits, for example changing the default value of an option
>>> +** [ENH:DOC] (previously [DOC]) for improvements in the tips or
>>> +contextual documentation provided to the user/admin
>>>
>>> * [FIX] for bug fixes of any sort
>>> -* [SEC] for security fix operations (implies [FIX]). If you feel you
>>> have reason to put this tag, please first contact security at tiki.org
>>> +** [FIX:SEC] (previously [SEC]) for security fix operations. If you feel you have reason to put this
>> tag, please first contact security at tiki.org.
>>> * [UPD] for updates of third party/vendor libraries
>>>
>>> * [UX] for user experience improvements; makes Tiki easier to use and
>>> understand (more details in https://dev.tiki.org/UX ) @@ -16,14 +16,14
>>> @@
>>>
>>> * [DB] for changes in the database
>>>
>>> -* [REM] for feature removals
>>> -* [KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files (has been used in
>>> the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6)
>>> +* [MOD] is a change which may be disruptive. For example, changing the default value of an
>> option.
>>> +** [MOD:REM] (previously [REM]) for feature removals
>>>
>>> +* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> +** [REF:KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files. This tag was previously "[KIL]", which was
>> used in the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6.
>>>
>>> -* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> * [REL] for the release process
>>> * [MRG] for branch merges, generally performed by the merge scripts
>>> -* [DOC] for improvements in the tips or contextual documentation
>>> provided to the user/admin
>>> * [TRA] for translation
>>>
>>> When possible, it's also nice to indicate what feature is concerned by the change.
>>>
>>> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development platform, the world's largest Open
>> Source development site.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>


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Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

lindon-4
Well said both Brendan and Jean-Marc.
Regards,
lindon

On Apr 20, 2017, at 7:59 PM, Dr. Sassafras <[hidden email]> wrote:

Commit tags are handy, but I don't care if they are not tagged "properly" as long as it's close. I would rather see people's effort in coding encouraged. If someone tags something that's really off base, a quick mention is all that's needed.

I would be in favour, if it's posable, to perhaps rejig commit tags so they match up with what's permitted to committed to which which branch, during each phase, if that's not already the case.

Then perhaps when we go through a release, we can send out a reminder on dev list stating which tags are being accepted in each branch.

All in all I don't care to spend much time st all subcategorizing the tags... I see little or even negative benefit. Would much rather focus on how to make tiki developers lives easier, and make tiki feel like a fun place to code.

We're all volunteer labour here at tiki. Tiki doesn't pay anyone for there contributions. If there is one thing I've learnt in places that accept volunteer labour, it's that every effort needs to be encouraged and praised. People just don't volunteer if it turns into a pain in the ass or they don't feel appreciated. 

-1 for making tags more difficult to select
-1 for strict adherence to existing tags

+1 for clarifying commit cycles with tags

Brendan

On Apr 20, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Jean-Marc Libs <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Philippe and everybody,

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jean-Marc,

There is usually extremely little interest in commit tags. I doubt someone with an opinion on commit tags would be subscribed to tikiwiki-devel without being subscribed to tikiwiki-cvs, but you are of course entirely free to bring the topic there.


It's not a matter of interest on the topic. I agree it's low. It's about using lists for their stated purposes.
From https://tiki.org/Mailing+Lists:
CVS SVN commits information, and comments about commits
If you plan to develop and commit code, you should subscribe to this list.
Development Tiki developers (the main decision/communication channel. Please do not use this forum for support — use the Forums instead.

As you see, CVS is about discussing commits, not making policy decisions. I personally try to read everything on devel, and I only browse CVS when time allows. Some of us never do, and they should have the opportunity of reacting before changes show up in a commit.


 

The objective of the change is precisely to reflect that, by reducing the number of (top-level) tags and making some superfluous tags mere sub-tags, even more optional. While there is no guarantee, this will presumably reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This does not improve Tiki per se, but should improve the lives of administrators and code reviewers (to a certain extent J ).


Thanks for explaining the objective of the change: reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This is my opinion on the matter:
The main reason for tag misuse is, tagging commits is less important than coding the commit itself. I feel you agree with this. Plus, it's the last step, when people sometimes feel tired and impatient to wrap the the coding session.

I feel misuse happens mostly because of inattention and carelessness.
This is not going to be solved with a new system of tags which is more elaborate with sub-tagging. This makes the whole thing more complicated to understand and type. There is no reduction of the number of tags, they just get longer and there is more text to read in order to understand how it works.
In my opinion, this will probably lead to more misuse.

Sadly, I don't have a 100% perfect solution. I just feel the optimum is having clear simple descriptions of tags, not too many tags, and point out tagging mistakes in reply to commit messages.

That's why I vote -1 to this change in the interest of the stated objective.

Cheers,
Jyhem
 

 

De : Jean-Marc Libs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Envoyé : 30 mars 2017 08:41
À : CVS/SVN commits information <[hidden email]>; Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>


Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

 

I also miss an actual discussion on the devel list.

Right now I have to fish around in the cvs list about the motivation for this change. The cvs list is for discussing individual commits with the people concerned, not for general policy changes.

Right now I'm still unsure about the objective of the change. Does it fix some issue ? Does it make someone's life better ? Does it improve Tiki ?
It's hard to comment on the appropriateness of a solution without an understanding of it's purpose.

Cheers,

J-M

 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Chealer

I did see that and replied to it (29 Mar 2017, at 11:40, reply to Luci's reply) - what i was asking was did i miss the discussion where this change was agreed?

I guess we just disagree on this - but mainly i think it's more important what's in the code than in the commit message.

Must get on (with code ;)

Thanks

jonny




> On 29 Mar 2017, at 21:15, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you didn't see my "Commit tags [KIL], [REM] and others (RE: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61879] trunk/admin/include_userfiles.php)" to tikiwiki-cvs, you missed a couple hours of updatedness :-) (but I did write after the commit).
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jonny Bradley [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Envoyé : 29 mars 2017 15:32
>> À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>> Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
>>
>>
>> Did i miss something?
>>
>>> On 29 Mar 2017, at 18:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Revision: 61942
>>>         http://sourceforge.net/p/tikiwiki/code/61942
>>> Author:   chealer
>>> Date:     2017-03-29 17:54:02 +0000 (Wed, 29 Mar 2017)
>>> Log Message:
>>> -----------
>>> Change some commit tags into subtags: [DOC] -> [ENH:DOC], [SEC] ->
>>> [FIX:SEC], [REM] -> [MOD:REM], [KIL] -> [REF:KIL]
>>>
>>> Modified Paths:
>>> --------------
>>>   trunk/changelog.txt
>>>
>>> Modified: trunk/changelog.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:49:53 UTC (rev 61941)
>>> +++ trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:54:02 UTC (rev 61942)
>>> @@ -3,13 +3,13 @@
>>>
>>> Changelog is now generated by a script (doc/devtools/release.php)
>>>
>>> -The following tags can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> +The following tags (and subtags, in the form [TAG:SUBTAG]) can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> * [NEW] for additions of new features
>>> * [ENH] is an enhancement; not really new but makes things work better
>>> (e.g. look and feel, performance...)
>>> -* [MOD] is a change in how things work, which may disrupt user
>>> habits, for example changing the default value of an option
>>> +** [ENH:DOC] (previously [DOC]) for improvements in the tips or
>>> +contextual documentation provided to the user/admin
>>>
>>> * [FIX] for bug fixes of any sort
>>> -* [SEC] for security fix operations (implies [FIX]). If you feel you
>>> have reason to put this tag, please first contact security at tiki.org
>>> +** [FIX:SEC] (previously [SEC]) for security fix operations. If you feel you have reason to put this
>> tag, please first contact security at tiki.org.
>>> * [UPD] for updates of third party/vendor libraries
>>>
>>> * [UX] for user experience improvements; makes Tiki easier to use and
>>> understand (more details in https://dev.tiki.org/UX ) @@ -16,14 +16,14
>>> @@
>>>
>>> * [DB] for changes in the database
>>>
>>> -* [REM] for feature removals
>>> -* [KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files (has been used in
>>> the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6)
>>> +* [MOD] is a change which may be disruptive. For example, changing the default value of an
>> option.
>>> +** [MOD:REM] (previously [REM]) for feature removals
>>>
>>> +* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> +** [REF:KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files. This tag was previously "[KIL]", which was
>> used in the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6.
>>>
>>> -* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> * [REL] for the release process
>>> * [MRG] for branch merges, generally performed by the merge scripts
>>> -* [DOC] for improvements in the tips or contextual documentation
>>> provided to the user/admin
>>> * [TRA] for translation
>>>
>>> When possible, it's also nice to indicate what feature is concerned by the change.
>>>
>>> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development platform, the world's largest Open
>> Source development site.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>


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Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE)
In reply to this post by Jean-Marc Libs

Hi Jean-Marc,

Please apologize for the formatting of my inline replies, tagged with my name…

 

 

De : Jean-Marc Libs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Envoyé : 20 avril 2017 19:13
À : Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]>
Cc : Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>
Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

 

Hi Philippe and everybody,

 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jean-Marc,

There is usually extremely little interest in commit tags. I doubt someone with an opinion on commit tags would be subscribed to tikiwiki-devel without being subscribed to tikiwiki-cvs, but you are of course entirely free to bring the topic there.

 

It's not a matter of interest on the topic. I agree it's low. It's about using lists for their stated purposes.

From https://tiki.org/Mailing+Lists:

CVS

SVN commits information, and comments about commits
If you plan to develop and commit code, you should subscribe to this list.

 

Development

Tiki developers (the main decision/communication channel. Please do not use this forum for support — use the Forums instead.

 

As you see, CVS is about discussing commits, not making policy decisions. I personally try to read everything on devel, and I only browse CVS when time allows. Some of us never do, and they should have the opportunity of reacting before changes show up in a commit.

[Philippe Cloutier]

Technically, this is a reply to a commit, so it’s not offtopic on tikiwiki-cvs. But I agree this could have been sent to tikiwiki-dev.

 

 

 

The objective of the change is precisely to reflect that, by reducing the number of (top-level) tags and making some superfluous tags mere sub-tags, even more optional. While there is no guarantee, this will presumably reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This does not improve Tiki per se, but should improve the lives of administrators and code reviewers (to a certain extent J ).

 

Thanks for explaining the objective of the change: reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This is my opinion on the matter:

The main reason for tag misuse is, tagging commits is less important than coding the commit itself. I feel you agree with this. Plus, it's the last step, when people sometimes feel tired and impatient to wrap the the coding session.

I feel misuse happens mostly because of inattention and carelessness.

 

[Philippe Cloutier] Carelessness surely matters. My perception is it’s a mix of that, of the existence of superfluous tags, of overlap, and of the apparent desire of some to tag much.

 

This is not going to be solved with a new system of tags which is more elaborate with sub-tagging. This makes the whole thing more complicated to understand and type. There is no reduction of the number of tags, they just get longer and there is more text to read in order to understand how it works.

 

[Philippe Cloutier] I would argue that tags do not get longer and that their number *is* reduced. This is only about top-level tags, but there is no need to use subtags.

 

In my opinion, this will probably lead to more misuse.

Sadly, I don't have a 100% perfect solution. I just feel the optimum is having clear simple descriptions of tags, not too many tags, and point out tagging mistakes in reply to commit messages.

That's why I vote -1 to this change in the interest of the stated objective.

 

Cheers,

Jyhem

 

 

De : Jean-Marc Libs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Envoyé : 30 mars 2017 08:41
À : CVS/SVN commits information <[hidden email]>; Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>


Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

 

I also miss an actual discussion on the devel list.

Right now I have to fish around in the cvs list about the motivation for this change. The cvs list is for discussing individual commits with the people concerned, not for general policy changes.

Right now I'm still unsure about the objective of the change. Does it fix some issue ? Does it make someone's life better ? Does it improve Tiki ?
It's hard to comment on the appropriateness of a solution without an understanding of it's purpose.

Cheers,

J-M

 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Chealer

I did see that and replied to it (29 Mar 2017, at 11:40, reply to Luci's reply) - what i was asking was did i miss the discussion where this change was agreed?

I guess we just disagree on this - but mainly i think it's more important what's in the code than in the commit message.

Must get on (with code ;)

Thanks

jonny




> On 29 Mar 2017, at 21:15, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you didn't see my "Commit tags [KIL], [REM] and others (RE: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61879] trunk/admin/include_userfiles.php)" to tikiwiki-cvs, you missed a couple hours of updatedness :-) (but I did write after the commit).
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jonny Bradley [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Envoyé : 29 mars 2017 15:32
>> À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>> Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
>>
>>
>> Did i miss something?
>>
>>> On 29 Mar 2017, at 18:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Revision: 61942
>>>         http://sourceforge.net/p/tikiwiki/code/61942
>>> Author:   chealer
>>> Date:     2017-03-29 17:54:02 +0000 (Wed, 29 Mar 2017)
>>> Log Message:
>>> -----------
>>> Change some commit tags into subtags: [DOC] -> [ENH:DOC], [SEC] ->
>>> [FIX:SEC], [REM] -> [MOD:REM], [KIL] -> [REF:KIL]
>>>
>>> Modified Paths:
>>> --------------
>>>   trunk/changelog.txt
>>>
>>> Modified: trunk/changelog.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:49:53 UTC (rev 61941)
>>> +++ trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:54:02 UTC (rev 61942)
>>> @@ -3,13 +3,13 @@
>>>
>>> Changelog is now generated by a script (doc/devtools/release.php)
>>>
>>> -The following tags can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> +The following tags (and subtags, in the form [TAG:SUBTAG]) can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> * [NEW] for additions of new features
>>> * [ENH] is an enhancement; not really new but makes things work better
>>> (e.g. look and feel, performance...)
>>> -* [MOD] is a change in how things work, which may disrupt user
>>> habits, for example changing the default value of an option
>>> +** [ENH:DOC] (previously [DOC]) for improvements in the tips or
>>> +contextual documentation provided to the user/admin
>>>
>>> * [FIX] for bug fixes of any sort
>>> -* [SEC] for security fix operations (implies [FIX]). If you feel you
>>> have reason to put this tag, please first contact security at tiki.org
>>> +** [FIX:SEC] (previously [SEC]) for security fix operations. If you feel you have reason to put this
>> tag, please first contact security at tiki.org.
>>> * [UPD] for updates of third party/vendor libraries
>>>
>>> * [UX] for user experience improvements; makes Tiki easier to use and
>>> understand (more details in https://dev.tiki.org/UX ) @@ -16,14 +16,14
>>> @@
>>>
>>> * [DB] for changes in the database
>>>
>>> -* [REM] for feature removals
>>> -* [KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files (has been used in
>>> the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6)
>>> +* [MOD] is a change which may be disruptive. For example, changing the default value of an
>> option.
>>> +** [MOD:REM] (previously [REM]) for feature removals
>>>
>>> +* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> +** [REF:KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files. This tag was previously "[KIL]", which was
>> used in the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6.
>>>
>>> -* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> * [REL] for the release process
>>> * [MRG] for branch merges, generally performed by the merge scripts
>>> -* [DOC] for improvements in the tips or contextual documentation
>>> provided to the user/admin
>>> * [TRA] for translation
>>>
>>> When possible, it's also nice to indicate what feature is concerned by the change.
>>>
>>> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development platform, the world's largest Open
>> Source development site.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
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Re: [Tiki-devel] [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

Jean-Marc Libs
Hi Philippe and everybody else who contributed,

Considering:
* The last argument is essentially the same as the initial one, which every contributor downvoted already.
* One month after the debate started, no new better suggestion has been pushed forward
* There is little interest in the topic, so keeping this issue open further seems pointless

I fixed the issue by reverting the change (r62852).

J-M


On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:27 PM, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jean-Marc,

Please apologize for the formatting of my inline replies, tagged with my name…

 

 

De : Jean-Marc Libs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Envoyé : 20 avril 2017 19:13
À : Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]>
Cc : Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>
Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

 

Hi Philippe and everybody,

 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Jean-Marc,

There is usually extremely little interest in commit tags. I doubt someone with an opinion on commit tags would be subscribed to tikiwiki-devel without being subscribed to tikiwiki-cvs, but you are of course entirely free to bring the topic there.

 

It's not a matter of interest on the topic. I agree it's low. It's about using lists for their stated purposes.

From https://tiki.org/Mailing+Lists:

CVS

SVN commits information, and comments about commits
If you plan to develop and commit code, you should subscribe to this list.

 

Development

Tiki developers (the main decision/communication channel. Please do not use this forum for support — use the Forums instead.

 

As you see, CVS is about discussing commits, not making policy decisions. I personally try to read everything on devel, and I only browse CVS when time allows. Some of us never do, and they should have the opportunity of reacting before changes show up in a commit.

[Philippe Cloutier]

Technically, this is a reply to a commit, so it’s not offtopic on tikiwiki-cvs. But I agree this could have been sent to tikiwiki-dev.

 

 

 

The objective of the change is precisely to reflect that, by reducing the number of (top-level) tags and making some superfluous tags mere sub-tags, even more optional. While there is no guarantee, this will presumably reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This does not improve Tiki per se, but should improve the lives of administrators and code reviewers (to a certain extent J ).

 

Thanks for explaining the objective of the change: reduce the frequency of tag misuse. This is my opinion on the matter:

The main reason for tag misuse is, tagging commits is less important than coding the commit itself. I feel you agree with this. Plus, it's the last step, when people sometimes feel tired and impatient to wrap the the coding session.

I feel misuse happens mostly because of inattention and carelessness.

 

[Philippe Cloutier] Carelessness surely matters. My perception is it’s a mix of that, of the existence of superfluous tags, of overlap, and of the apparent desire of some to tag much.

 

This is not going to be solved with a new system of tags which is more elaborate with sub-tagging. This makes the whole thing more complicated to understand and type. There is no reduction of the number of tags, they just get longer and there is more text to read in order to understand how it works.

 

[Philippe Cloutier] I would argue that tags do not get longer and that their number *is* reduced. This is only about top-level tags, but there is no need to use subtags.

 

In my opinion, this will probably lead to more misuse.

Sadly, I don't have a 100% perfect solution. I just feel the optimum is having clear simple descriptions of tags, not too many tags, and point out tagging mistakes in reply to commit messages.

That's why I vote -1 to this change in the interest of the stated objective.

 

Cheers,

Jyhem

 

 

De : Jean-Marc Libs [mailto:[hidden email]]
Envoyé : 30 mars 2017 08:41
À : CVS/SVN commits information <[hidden email]>; Tikiwiki developers <[hidden email]>


Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt

 

I also miss an actual discussion on the devel list.

Right now I have to fish around in the cvs list about the motivation for this change. The cvs list is for discussing individual commits with the people concerned, not for general policy changes.

Right now I'm still unsure about the objective of the change. Does it fix some issue ? Does it make someone's life better ? Does it improve Tiki ?
It's hard to comment on the appropriateness of a solution without an understanding of it's purpose.

Cheers,

J-M

 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Jonny Bradley <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Chealer

I did see that and replied to it (29 Mar 2017, at 11:40, reply to Luci's reply) - what i was asking was did i miss the discussion where this change was agreed?

I guess we just disagree on this - but mainly i think it's more important what's in the code than in the commit message.

Must get on (with code ;)

Thanks

jonny




> On 29 Mar 2017, at 21:15, Cloutier, Philippe (RESSOURCE EXTERNE) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If you didn't see my "Commit tags [KIL], [REM] and others (RE: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61879] trunk/admin/include_userfiles.php)" to tikiwiki-cvs, you missed a couple hours of updatedness :-) (but I did write after the commit).
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Jonny Bradley [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Envoyé : 29 mars 2017 15:32
>> À : Tiki developers <[hidden email]>
>> Objet : Re: [Tikiwiki-cvs/svn] SF.net SVN: tikiwiki:[61942] trunk/changelog.txt
>>
>>
>> Did i miss something?
>>
>>> On 29 Mar 2017, at 18:54, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>> Revision: 61942
>>>         http://sourceforge.net/p/tikiwiki/code/61942
>>> Author:   chealer
>>> Date:     2017-03-29 17:54:02 +0000 (Wed, 29 Mar 2017)
>>> Log Message:
>>> -----------
>>> Change some commit tags into subtags: [DOC] -> [ENH:DOC], [SEC] ->
>>> [FIX:SEC], [REM] -> [MOD:REM], [KIL] -> [REF:KIL]
>>>
>>> Modified Paths:
>>> --------------
>>>   trunk/changelog.txt
>>>
>>> Modified: trunk/changelog.txt
>>> ===================================================================
>>> --- trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:49:53 UTC (rev 61941)
>>> +++ trunk/changelog.txt     2017-03-29 17:54:02 UTC (rev 61942)
>>> @@ -3,13 +3,13 @@
>>>
>>> Changelog is now generated by a script (doc/devtools/release.php)
>>>
>>> -The following tags can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> +The following tags (and subtags, in the form [TAG:SUBTAG]) can be used to distinguish changes:
>>> * [NEW] for additions of new features
>>> * [ENH] is an enhancement; not really new but makes things work better
>>> (e.g. look and feel, performance...)
>>> -* [MOD] is a change in how things work, which may disrupt user
>>> habits, for example changing the default value of an option
>>> +** [ENH:DOC] (previously [DOC]) for improvements in the tips or
>>> +contextual documentation provided to the user/admin
>>>
>>> * [FIX] for bug fixes of any sort
>>> -* [SEC] for security fix operations (implies [FIX]). If you feel you
>>> have reason to put this tag, please first contact security at tiki.org
>>> +** [FIX:SEC] (previously [SEC]) for security fix operations. If you feel you have reason to put this
>> tag, please first contact security at tiki.org.
>>> * [UPD] for updates of third party/vendor libraries
>>>
>>> * [UX] for user experience improvements; makes Tiki easier to use and
>>> understand (more details in https://dev.tiki.org/UX ) @@ -16,14 +16,14
>>> @@
>>>
>>> * [DB] for changes in the database
>>>
>>> -* [REM] for feature removals
>>> -* [KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files (has been used in
>>> the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6)
>>> +* [MOD] is a change which may be disruptive. For example, changing the default value of an
>> option.
>>> +** [MOD:REM] (previously [REM]) for feature removals
>>>
>>> +* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> +** [REF:KIL] for removals of unused or obsolete files. This tag was previously "[KIL]", which was
>> used in the sense of [REM] prior to Tiki 6.
>>>
>>> -* [REF] for refactoring; changes the structure of the code (to make it cleaner or clearer), without
>> changing its actual behaviour.
>>> * [REL] for the release process
>>> * [MRG] for branch merges, generally performed by the merge scripts
>>> -* [DOC] for improvements in the tips or contextual documentation
>>> provided to the user/admin
>>> * [TRA] for translation
>>>
>>> When possible, it's also nice to indicate what feature is concerned by the change.
>>>
>>> This was sent by the SourceForge.net collaborative development platform, the world's largest Open
>> Source development site.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -------- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>> http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-cvs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-cvs
>


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